Dungeon Discussion

  • Hi guys! I'm not really in a position to start any debates, but I feel like I haven't seen one about the Dungeon yet. Are people really happy with how the Dungeon works at the moment? Cause in truth, I'm not so I'm a bit surprised nobody has said anything about it yet.


    Anyway, I'll start by explaining my opinion and hopefully more people will share theirs as well.



    Charges


    If you're smart and you use your armies correctly, you'll be able to climb a Dungeon Level every time you have a Soulshine Charge. However, I've been doing that (or mostly that) since I found out the amount I was getting and the time I had to wait to get more Charges. At the moment, we gain 1 Charge every 8 hours. That's 3 per day. I had no idea about this when i started (there's no info anywhere that I could find in-game) so yeah... I'm basically leveling up 3 Dungeon Levels a day since I was still in level 3... That seriously sucks, cause I would have never wasted all the Charges I had when I started if I knew this. But we start with so many, I just assumed I'd get a bunch when that time finally got to 0. NOPE. Only1 haha


    Rewards


    Anyway, then comes the reward system... It's awesome that we get a lot of XP and a lot of resources with it, but why is it so hard to get items? What are the actual probabilities of getting items or scrolls over getting resources? Cause I'm really not getting any, and when i do, they're mostly cheap repeats of what I don't need/want. I currently have about 15 items total and I've only sold one of them (at the start) and I've used all my charges so far 42 + 8x3 = 66. (42 is what I remember to have at the start, but might have been slightly higher, can anyone confirm?)

    So, basically, over 60 times in the Dungeon and only about 15 items dropped and if I'm not mistaken, only 2 or 3 scrolls.


    And I'm going to be honest... I'm in one of the smaller Realms so I'm not really fighting with players that much. In fact, I avoid it as much as I can, or I'll never even have a chance to properly do it. With that said, I can say that specially at the start, it was hard to even reach the Strength levels of the Dungeon's Armies. So actually losing a ton of Troops to get these small rewards, doesn't really feel like being rewarded at the moment.



    Purpose? End-Game?


    What about Lore? What exactly is the purpose of the Dungeon? From a visual perspective, since Elves and Dwarves are usually races that fight for the Good, I can assume that the Dungeon is the Fight for the forces of Good vs the Dead and Evil. I might be wrong, but still, I had to figure it out by myself and I actually see no point to it, to be blunt.

    Is there an End-game to this Dungeon Levelling? Because at the start I remember thinking "Awesome, I just need to always fight people and Goblins and I'll be able to climb this Dungeon in no time", assuming that was the purpose of the game. Turns out clearing these Dungeons don't really affect your ranking or your Realm's Ascendence or your living armies that much or Orb production or anything really. It's just a small help to get resources or, if you're lucky enough, to get a somewhat useful item for the battles to come.

    And I know the point of the game is mostly about Realms getting territory and generating/stealing orbs. And that should be the primary focus for players, but then why have the Dungeon at all?

    Anyway, this is my opinion and to show a bit of my disapointment with the awesome potential this feature has (in my eyes).



    So... TL;DR Here are my suggestions:

    • Only 1 Charge every 8h is too low. I would really like if it was at least 2. Or maybe 1 every 4h?
    • Please put some information in-game about the Charge. Saying "Next Soulshine Charge in..." is confusing. At least something like "1 Soulshine Charge in..." would be better. Or give some kind of information to make clear those Charges at the start are an exception!
    • Make rewards slightly better please. I'd rather get a lot more resources from Goblin Camps than waste such a rarity that is my Charge on just a few resources. More/Better items would make it a lot more worth all the Troops I lost to finally be able to surpass a level
    • A Ranking system for the Dungeon would be nice, but at least something that makes the Dungeon truly worth its existence? I gave an idea to have a secondary Skill Tree related to it in another thread. That could make it more interesting. Or maybe even unlock a (special) Building Space that you could only access after clearing X Level? Like an outpost on the other side? xD


    Anyway, this is just a retrospective after 8 days of playing the game, from what I thought was actually an interesting feature of the game.

    Can you guys also share your opinion? Any ideas?

  • Hello! There's always more room for healthy discussion around here, so no sweat about getting it started yourself. I also have a bit I'd like to share about the topic, both of what I've discussed elsewhere, and some more of my own thoughts on it.

    Charges

    I definitely struggled a bit at first with progression, but the stronger your Fallen army gets, the easier it is to progress regardless of the Demons total Strength. While this is a byproduct of the strength being split among multiple Warlords, it definitely means the numerical representations given aren't quite representative enough of the level of challenge, despite the fact that learning through fighting that often stronger single Warlords can outmatch multiple smaller Warlords of greater Strength.

    I definitely feel overall that besides the prior, I'd like more charges and an increase in difficulty in return for them. And I can also agree that a lot of things in this game need a bit more explanation, though learning through playing also has it's now attractiveness, as it gives you the chance to do that much better the next time around.

    Rewards

    Rewards feel a bit skewed towards making you have to invest time and effort into progressing, and while they grow overtime, I feel we're not give enough variety or chances to make up for lack there of. I'd personally like to be given a choice between the three drops after clearing a floor, as that'd help players feel productive with their time spent; Do you want resources, an item, or a scroll?

    Additional Dungeon Content

    While I haven't reached the final level of the Dungeon yet, so I don't know what would be there myself, I agree that it'd be interesting to have some kind of growing effect going on, possibly even an alternative Ascension? These Demons look pretty strong, so they must be doing something right.

    My TL;DR

    • I agree that charges even with the current system seem to be just a bit slow, though I'd feel much better with significantly faster charges but also a good difficultly increase.
    • I'd have to assume that there will be a tutorial covering charge usage in the future, but I agree that a more informative tool tip would be helpful.
    • Varied selectable rewards would make the dungeon feel much better, even if the trade off was lower quality items more often, as players would then have the choice of that item or a different reward.
    • I'd really like a better representation of the difficulty level of the dungeon, while I understand now due to experience why strength is different when spread between multiple Warlords, the current setup implies otherwise without such experience.
    • It'd be interesting to have a more impactful use of the dungeon, maybe even an altar building on top of it that we can sacrifice souls and rewards to for alternatives like the reward choice I mentioned above, with a variance of strength based on the altars level.

  • Rewards

    Rewards feel a bit skewed towards making you have to invest time and effort into progressing, and while they grow overtime, I feel we're not give enough variety or chances to make up for lack there of. I'd personally like to be given a choice between the three drops after clearing a floor, as that'd help players feel productive with their time spent; Do you want resources, an item, or a scroll?


    This would definitely be an amazing change. Would really be worth a lot more my Charge since I could pick what type of reward I wanted. Even if the outcome wouldn't be as I had hoped (a bad item drop or whatever) it would still give me the chance to get what I wanted or needed instead of wasting maybe 6 charges (2 whole days of time) and get only 1 crappy item.

  • I think there are enough or mayby even too many charges. Im at lvl 32 of the dungeon with 12 charges saved up and something like 20 burned just for the exp. If there were more, it would put lower lvl players at a serious disadvantage, as what I would do is burn my charges on lvl 31 getting up to 20k exp, while lower lvls could get mayby half that - increasing the gap between high lvl and low lvl.


    As for the rewards it's simmilar. Im getting purple items from the dungeon now (rarely of course, but it seems there's ~15% chance for an item). I don't care about neither resources nor the scrolls (resources I would get from dungeon are mayby 20 minute production and scrolls are way less usefull then items), so that further increases the gap, as Im sure some players would make the mistake of picking resources and/or scrolls.


    A separete skilltree is a good idea, I would definetly enjoy that. It would be fun IMO if Dungeon skill tree increased warlord combat and avatar skill tree increased dungeon combat. As it is now the mechanics practically force everybody to max out slot 1 power skill, which might not be the optimal choice for warlord combat.

  • I can see the potential problems with the XP gap, that's something I hadn't entirely considered beyond raising the difficulty of progression in the dungeon.

    I've not seen a purple yet, but I'm also only clearing level 29 right now, stuck on 30. I can agree that the resources have practically no use for me, but I've got some 6 hour and 24 hour scrolls that I was pretty excited about. So there are cases where I do like those as a reward, though they're rare.


    I'm growing more and more interested in the potential second skill tree myself, it's like a whole other game under the surface down there in the underworld.

  • Even 6 or 24 hour scrolls aren't very meaningfull compared to items, because of their one time use. For instance 2 of the last items I've gotten - 1 gives +13% infantry streangth, the other gives a 19% chance to block 40% of damage (so ~7,6% dmg reduction on avarage, so ~4% increase in combat power of the whole team = ~12% of a single slot). That 24 hour scroll will allow you to speed up 1 building (lets say it will be barracks, to simplify), which would give you a 3% reduction in production time of infantery. Even assuming that you don't fill out warlord slots anyway now, that's a 3% increase compared to 13% or 12% (or even 4% if you look at it from a diffrent vantage point). And that 3% sooner or later (rather sooner) will become meaningless anyway, as you will get a surplus of units, that you simply can't use, for lack of slots.

  • Ok, so when I created this Thread I was still only at Level 13 in the Dungeon. Now I just cleared the 20th and ever since Level 15 I received an item drop almost 100% of the times I cleared a Level. The ones I didn't, I ended up getting a scroll.

    So far I'm happy with these rewards. Don't really need the resources at this point so yeah, feeling a lot happier! Not sure it's because of the Levelling up or just luck though.

  • Even 6 or 24 hour scrolls aren't very meaningfull compared to items, because of their one time use. For instance 2 of the last items I've gotten - 1 gives +13% infantry streangth, the other gives a 19% chance to block 40% of damage (so ~7,6% dmg reduction on avarage, so ~4% increase in combat power of the whole team = ~12% of a single slot). That 24 hour scroll will allow you to speed up 1 building (lets say it will be barracks, to simplify), which would give you a 3% reduction in production time of infantery. Even assuming that you don't fill out warlord slots anyway now, that's a 3% increase compared to 13% or 12% (or even 4% if you look at it from a diffrent vantage point). And that 3% sooner or later (rather sooner) will become meaningless anyway, as you will get a surplus of units, that you simply can't use, for lack of slots.

    The capacity of the slots is really small! I hope that it will increase. As for the rewards in the dungeon, they grow with the increasing level of the dungeon. It doesn't seem quite obvious at first, but it is.

  • I haven't progressed that far yet, but after dungeon level 12 I started getting a lot more items.
    To all of the above I agree to a few things:

    1: It should be stated somewhere the first time that you open the dungeon, that you will only get a small amount of orbs, and that the ones you gain from a later start is just accumulated over the span of the game so far.

    2: The dungeon gives a nice bonus as I see it. It gives free items and scrolls and the items gained can be sold for gems if you can't afford to buy them, giving players a chance to be in the game and compete even with limited money. (A big problem in Travian, that is here less open)

    3: The idea of a separate skill tree in the dungeon sounds awesome! especially if it could be made so that dwarfs and elves fight in the "underworld" as well, and the demons they face are technically just their fallen enemies. So if the dungeon could also have a kind of realm war, that would be interesting. Where the realms warlords have their dead armies fight each other for possible items or the like, and get some orbs if they win.
    Not sure how it would be balanced out, but could make it more interesting.

    4: The idea of choosing your reward is awesome! At the earlier levels you will most often want the resources, since a slow start is death, both for someone starting late and someone starting as the server begins. And as the game progressed you will want either scrolls or items, both to develop your ark, but also to either buff your warlords or sell if worse than the ones you already have.


    I think that the dungeon rewards are good now, since it gives players a way to play for free. (The game is made by a company that need to make money, but this is a way to make sure that all can actively play the game, and not get completely screwed over by people with money. And hopefully balance the game out so that more people can play it = make the game funnier and more active)
    So I absolutely see a reason to have the dungeon there no matter :D


  • I think that the dungeon rewards are good now, since it gives players a way to play for free. (The game is made by a company that need to make money, but this is a way to make sure that all can actively play the game, and not get completely screwed over by people with money. And hopefully balance the game out so that more people can play it = make the game funnier and more active)
    So I absolutely see a reason to have the dungeon there no matter :D


    This is actually a fair point. I didn't think about it that way, mostly because I'm already expecting them to put Charges for sale once beta is over. But then again, that might be my experience in the industry get the better of me.

    If they don't start selling Charges and actually make it as you see it, then I completely agree with you on that point.


    I have to be honest though, I haven't really sold any of my items yet (only that one at the beggining) so I haven't really gone for thise Saphires that way ^^


    As for the rewards in the dungeon, they grow with the increasing level of the dungeon. It doesn't seem quite obvious at first, but it is.

    It was pretty obvious to me if I can be honest. I mean, the whole point of the Dungeon was to level it up. Why would anyone do it if the rewards didn't increase in value? xD

    I still think they should be better somehow and that idea of being able to choose the type of reward seems really good to me.

  • with no guidance at all you can waste all your Soul shines if you don't watch what you are doing.

    That's what I did and now it takes for ever to regenerate them.

    Then if you don't loose troops in other battles you can't progress in there because you don't have enough troops to overcome the strength of opposing forces.